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#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature

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#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature

Lex Fridman Podcast

Oct 01
Lex Fridman Podcast

Lex Fridman Podcast

Oct 01
OverviewShownoteHighlightsTranscriptChaptersPins

Shownote

Pavel Durov is the founder and CEO of Telegram. Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/ep482-sc See below for timestamps, transcript, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc. Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/pavel-durov-transcript CONTACT LEX: Feedback - give feedback to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/survey AMA - submit questions, videos or call-in: https://lexfridman.com/ama Hiring - join our team: https://lexfridman.com/hiring Other - other ways to get in touch: https://lexfridman.com/contact EPISODE LINKS: Pavel's Telegram: https://t.me/durov Pavel's X: https://x.com/durov Telegram: https://telegram.org/ Telegram Contests: https://contest.com/ SPONSORS: To support this podcast, check out our sponsors & get discounts: Miro: Online collaborative whiteboard platform. Go to https://miro.com/ UPLIFT Desk: Standing desks and office ergonomics. Go to https://upliftdesk.com/lex Fin: AI agent for customer service. Go to https://fin.ai/lex LMNT: Zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix. Go to https://drinkLMNT.com/lex Shopify: Sell stuff online. Go to https://shopify.com/lex OUTLINE: (00:00) - Introduction (02:46) - Sponsors, Comments, and Reflections (11:29) - Philosophy of freedom (14:37) - No alcohol (22:42) - No phone (28:38) - Discipline (49:50) - Telegram: Lean philosophy, privacy, and geopolitics (1:05:12) - Arrest in France (1:21:23) - Romanian elections (1:32:18) - Power and corruption (1:41:50) - Intense education (1:53:51) - Nikolai Durov (1:58:19) - Programming and video games (2:02:33) - VK origins & engineering (2:19:46) - Hiring a great team (2:29:02) - Telegram engineering & design (2:48:04) - Encryption (2:53:01) - Open source (2:57:48) - Edward Snowden (3:00:20) - Intelligence agencies (3:01:32) - Iran and Russia government pressure (3:04:41) - Apple (3:11:38) - Poisoning (3:43:53) - Money (3:52:45) - TON (4:02:35) - Bitcoin (4:05:34) - Two chairs dilemma (4:12:14) - Children (4:23:24) - Father (4:27:55) - Quantum immortality (4:34:27) - Kafka PODCAST LINKS: - Podcast Website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast - Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr - Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 - RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ - Podcast Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 - Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/lexclips

Highlights

In this compelling conversation, Pavel Durov, the founder and CEO of Telegram, shares his philosophy on freedom, discipline, and technological sovereignty. From personal resilience to the design principles behind one of the world’s most private messaging platforms, Durov offers a rare look into the mindset of a digital dissident who has consistently prioritized user privacy over profit or political compliance.
11:29
Fear and greed are the biggest enemies of freedom.
14:40
Alcohol damages brain cells, and avoiding it is a form of self-mastery.
26:35
Excessive connectivity reduces productivity and distorts what's important
47:56
Porn is a substitute for real connection and indicates a deficiency in life
54:14
Telegram has never shared private messages with governments and never will
1:18:42
I'd rather go to prison than betray user trust.
1:21:26
Telegram refuses to compromise free speech, even under arrest and government pressure.
1:40:44
An entrepreneur refused to return to France despite favorable terms, still traumatized by past state persecution
1:50:25
Humans are biologically wired for competition, which drives progress.
1:53:53
Nikolai is a prodigy in math and programming, yet remains deeply modest and avoids public attention.
1:58:22
Scarcity led to creativity in early programming projects
2:19:05
A slight delay in app opening can waste millions of hours across Telegram's user base.
2:19:46
Firing a B player can increase team productivity by removing drag on A players.
2:39:56
Telegram's vector-animated stickers are lightweight and load instantly, offering a superior experience compared to other apps.
2:52:08
Secret chats are the most secure way to communicate on Telegram
2:53:01
Telegram is the only popular messaging app with open source reproducible builds on both Android and iOS
2:57:48
Not everything is as it seems—many 'experts' were NSA agents promoting flawed encryption.
3:00:20
Nothing can change my current mindset despite external pressures
3:01:32
Telegram used IP rotation technology to bypass Russia's ban
3:04:41
Durov set a deadline for Apple to allow Telegram updates or leave the Russian market.
3:38:56
Personality traits like emotionality can be both criticized and a source of strength for innovators.
3:43:53
Telegram expects over half a billion dollars in revenue this year from premium subscriptions alone.
4:01:38
Some Telegram mini-app developers earned up to $12 million in a few months.
4:02:37
Bitcoin is the ideal form of money because it cannot be confiscated or censored
4:09:45
The walrus penis bone served as a symbol of quiet resistance in oppressive regimes.
4:17:15
Abundance without purpose leads to social collapse, as seen in mouse experiments.
4:23:24
AI lacks human conscience and moral principles.
4:27:55
Conscious beings may never experience their own death due to quantum immortality
4:41:42
Recognizing Kafkaesque systems is a mark of wisdom and humanity.

Chapters

Introduction
00:00
Sponsors, Comments, and Reflections
02:46
Philosophy of freedom
11:29
No alcohol
14:37
No phone
22:42
Discipline
28:38
Telegram: Lean philosophy, privacy, and geopolitics
49:50
Arrest in France
1:05:12
Romanian elections
1:21:23
Power and corruption
1:32:18
Intense education
1:41:50
Nikolai Durov
1:53:51
Programming and video games
1:58:19
VK origins & engineering
2:02:33
Hiring a great team
2:19:46
Telegram engineering & design
2:29:02
Encryption
2:48:04
Open source
2:53:01
Edward Snowden
2:57:48
Intelligence agencies
3:00:20
Iran and Russia government pressure
3:01:32
Apple
3:04:41
Poisoning
3:11:38
Money
3:43:53
TON
3:52:45
Bitcoin
4:02:35
Two chairs dilemma
4:05:34
Children
4:12:14
Father
4:23:24
Quantum immortality
4:27:55
Kafka
4:34:27

Transcript

Lex Fridman: The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, founder and CEO of Telegram, a messaging platform actively used by over 1 billion people. Pavel has spent his life fighting for freedom of speech, building tools that protect human communicatio...